It's the faithful that leave church

This quote really resonates with me. It's Carolyn Kitto, on ABC's Sunday Nights, in a discussion about changes in society, and churches who are aware of that:

You know, people are not necessarily leaving the church because they're losing their faith. They're actually leaving the church because they're wanting to express their faith in the rest of the world.

The host expanded on her thought by adding "- and they don't want to put up with having to give their lives to sustaining (what they consider) a boring waste of time on a Sunday morning."

Later on, Carolyn gave churches the tip:

Church needs to leave the building and be part of God's mission. Where churches are discovering that, they're discovering a different way of being. ... It's not a program of the church - it's a different way of being church. It's not for the sake of the church, it's for the sake of the mission of God.

In a way, it can sound like bad news for churches. People leaving, and the need for change aren't things churches usually like. But there's an tremendous opportunity if churches are willing. It's actually one of the things that keeps Carolyn hopeful for the future.

Another thing that's bringing me hope is the number of people who are leaving the church for the sake of their faith. Who are saying I've gotta figure out a way that my faith works in the rest of the world. And they're wanting to have those conversations with other Christians that are in that situation. But they're wanting to have that conversation with people who they are rubbing shoulders with every day, because the fundamentally believe they've found a framework that makes sense in this world, and a God who is the God of the universe.

Download the MP3

Where you stand effects what you see

Where you stand effects what you see. And I suppose when you stand in a place of comfort, the way that you see the bible, the way that you see your faith is very much through that lens. And so i guess the challenge for me has been to stand in some different places and particularly some more challenging places, and alongside some people who are facing some particular challenges and see how very much different the bible looks from those vantage points.

One day i realised that I believed all the things i was supposed to, and it made absolutely no difference to the way that i lived. I was no different to the person next to me. My wife challenged both of us "If we really believed all the things we say about God - it would actually radically change the way we live." And so I guess our challenge since then has been to bridge that gap between what we say we believe and the way that we live.

Those quotes are from Rev Simon Moyle in an interview on ABC's Sunday Nights when asked about his upbringing in 'middle class, Sunday morning comfort'.

When Jesus says that he's come to bring life, what he doesn't mean is just the white picket fence with a house in the suburbs. He's actually saying something much greater.

It's good to get this kind a challenge from time to time. Often as a church we retreat from the world and focus on ourselves. Too much of this means our faith suffers (through a narrow perspective) and our actions become less like Jesus. This is not good for us, and not good the neighbours we are called to love.

Kingdom Of God

What did Jesus mean by the "Kingdom of God" and how is it relevant today? That was the topic for discussion on the Palm Sunday episode on ABC Sunday Nights.


Suggestions included "a different way of living" and "letting God be in charge for a change". Part of the discussion was how church itself (as a rich institution) is often an obstacle to living out godly values. (Side note: I was recently sent this picture by a friend)

"What other organisation in Australia has people gathering every week in every community across the nation? Why cannot we be a very strong voice for an alternative way of living? We just seem to freak away from it."

One guest, Prof Richard Burridge, asked "To what extent does the church and its teaching follow Jesus?" and gave money and war as two examples of the church historically acting contrary to the gospel. He also lamented the current trend to refer to a "biblical" lifestyle, based on "one or two areas of sexuality" and completely missing Jesus' radical challenge to society operates.

He thinks that "far too often we're reading it (the bible) in terms of a mirror and using it to reflect back our previous prejudices." Rev Ray Cleary agreed, saying "every Christian ought to be up in arms about our treatment of asylum seekers".

Perhaps the most telling remark came right at the end. "Those who want to follow the path of the crucified, have got to look out for thorns." Often, i'm not sure we're ready for that kind of discomfort.

[Download podcast]

David Murrow - How Women Help Men Find God

David Murrow continued his discussion on James Dobson's "Family Talk" program (see my summary of part 1). This time the discussion was more about women - and how they can help the men and boys in their life find God. [Download Part 1 | Part 2]


The point of this discussion is well summed up by the dedication in David Murrow's second book:

This book is dedicated to 3 women - she who prays for her man but sees no change, she whose son has abandoned the faith, and she who searches for a Christian mate but finds none.

The female host reckoned that speaks to about 90% of women. The chat started with understanding how difficult it is for men in the church today.
More of David Murrow's own story:

I got so frustrated with Christianity, I began to wonder if I could be a Christian and a man at the same time. Our church was such a cautious place, such a nurturing place. And then i'd open up the scriptures and Jesus was anything but that. I began to realise that if Christ came to our church that he would probably be thrown out. He would be considered unfit to lead.

On how we've twisted the gospel:

150 years ago - If you went up to a pastor and asked for 'a personal relationship with Jesus' they wouldn't know what you're talking about. But now we've brought in metaphors like that, which takes the gospel and expresses it in terms of a woman's greatest desire - a personal relationship with a man who loves her.

On why some "worship" songs just don't cut it:

A man is going to express his love in terms of respect not romance. I'm not going to say "Ryan. I'm desperate for you. I'm lost without you. I'm so in love with you." You feel how weird that is?

Speaking about helping men find God, he says "you gotta realise that church may not be the way it's going to happen - or you need to find a church that understands men... Help them find other goldy men to hang out with." It's not a macho thing, It's about bringing a healthy masculine spirit, that's present in the gospel, into the church.

Reaching The Next Generation (Mark Driscoll)

Some time ago i was sent this link to an address by Mark Driscoll to the Sydney Anglicans. I've still got the mp3 and have listened to it a number of times.

He can be a bit controversial - tending to tell it like it is, rather than telling people what they want to hear. I like that style. He points out that:

Australian churches suppress young people.
(He started a church at 25. Our churches would never let that happen. At 25 you might be allowed do a bible reading - or take up the offering!)

The parish system is outdated
(after all it was invented in england before a world of cars and the internet)

Denominations are about control - young people are about influence
(perhaps being a friend/mentor/respected elder is better than the dictatorship approach)

Church leaders know their bible inside out, but are less familiar with the culture around them
(and therefore less able to communicate the message of Jesus to people of that culture)

Churches become instutions (or museums) rather than movements
(museum is a good word - remembering how good the past was, but not really doing anything constructive)

One of the major thoughts i took out of if was "What would a church do?" versus "what would a missionary do?". Essentially, a church has a building and gathers already-christians together. A missionary tries to help people by communicating the message of Jesus.

He finishes by referring to the movements of the past:

They were innovative in their day. You need to be innovative in your day. They found a way to faithfully serve God in their day. You need to find a way to faithfully serve God in your day.

"Losing My Religion"

Caught a podcast from ABC radio. Tom Frame (author of "losing my religion") was being interviewed about the lack of 'religion' in Australia. Some very interesting discussion points, including:

- There is a general 'crisis' of belonging not restricted to churches. It also affects political parties, sporting organisations, rotary clubs etc.

- There's been more change in the last 20-30 years than almost in all of Christian history. The church has not been ready for what happened. Things happened in the 60s, churches didn't realise it until the 80s, started measuring it in the 90s, and now they are beginning to formulate a response.

- People who were faithful pew-sitters for 30 years, switched off their brains, and then were invited to switch them on again in the 90s.... those who don't like the uncertainty and confusion retreat to an infallible book or infallible church.

- The lack of credibility of churches/denominations who refuse to accept the basics of science (for example).

It's a fairly interesting discussion, but what does the church do about all this???